01-11-10 PC Minutes
Regular Meeting of the
Golden Valley Planning Commission
January 11, 2010
A regular meeting of the Planning Commission was held at the Golden Valley City Hall,
Council Chambers, 7800 Golden Valley Road, Golden Valley, Minnesota, on Monday,
January 11, 2010. Chair Keysser called the meeting to order at 7:05 pm.
Those present were Planning Commissioners Eck, Keysser, Schmidgall and Waldhauser.
Also present was Director of Planning and Development Mark Grimes, City Planner Joe
Hogeboom and Administrative Assistant Lisa Wittman. Commissioners Cera, Kluchka and
McCarty were absent.
1. Approval of Minutes
November 9, 2009 Joint Planning Commission/City Council Meeting
Eck referred to the last sentence on page two and stated the word "need" should be
changed to "needs".
MOVED by Eck, seconded by Waldhauser and motion carried unanimously to approve the
November 9,2009 minutes with the above noted correction.
November 23, 2009 Regular Planning Commission Meeting
Eck referred to the last sentence on page 10 and stated the word "to" should be changed to
the word "from".
MOVED by Eck, seconded by Waldhauser and motion carried unanimously to approve the
November 23,2009 minutes with the above noted correction.
2. Informal Public Hearing - Conditional Use Permit Amendment #1 -
850 Florida Avenue South - CU-95
Applicant: 3rd Lair Skatepark, Mark Muller
Address: 850 Florida Avenue South
Purpose: To allow for the existing skate park to be open 24 hours a day, 7 days a
week for special events
Hogeboom explained the applicant's request to amend their existing Conditional Use
Permit (CUP) to allow them to be open 24 hours a day for special events and to reduce
their required number of parking spaces from 50 spaces to 5 spaces in the summer and 25
spaces in the winter.
He referred to Police Chief Altonen's memo included in the agenda packet and discussed
some of her concerns regarding crowd control and safety.
Minutes of the Golden Valley Planning Commission
January 11, 2010
Page 2
He stated that in regard to the request for fewer parking spaces planning staff realizes that
the current requirement of 50 spaces may be too much, so staff is recommending the
applicant have 25 parking spaces available year-round. He referred to his memo and
discussed the recommended conditions of approval which include: providing a screened
dumpster, complying with the American with Disabilities Act by providing adequate
handicapped-accessible parking and providing 25 striped parking spaces.
Keysser asked how many parking spaces the applicant has currently. Hogeboom said he
wasn't sure but he doesn't think they have the 50 spaces they are required to have.
Keysser asked if the applicant meets the conditions in their current CUP and with Fire
Department requirements. Hogeboom said they are not in compliance with their existing
CUP and he thinks there have been on-going issues with the Fire Department
requirements.
Eck referred to a site plan of the property and asked for clarification regarding the number
of parking spaces shown on the plan. Grimes explained that in the past, the applicant's
demand for parking has decreased in the summer months. He stated that there have been
various issues regarding outdoor storage, parking, signage and the overnight events being
held without permission, and that the applicant has been asked to address these issues.
Eck asked if there have ever been the required 50 designated parking spaces on this
property. Grimes said yes, originally there were 50 parking spaces and that over time skate
board ramps have taken over several of the parking spaces.
Mark Muller, Applicant, introduced his business partners Matt Parrish and Mark Rodriguez.
He referred to the Deputy Fire Marshal's memo and stated that all of conditions listed in his
memo have been met. He stated that he has had a code analysis done and life safety
issues are being met. He explained that their total occupancy load is 494 and that Deputy
Fire Marshal, Ed Anderson, wants each separate area to have occupancy load signs
posted, which he is willing to do.
Muller gave a history of his business and stated that they are proud of their history, their
ability to provide a safe environment and how their presence has added to Golden Valley.
He stated that over the past few years their admissions have been lower so their special
events and "all-nighters" have become increasingly important. He stated that they have
been hosting "all-nighters" approximately 6 to 8 times per year for 13 years. He explained
that approximately 50 to 75 kids attend the "all-nighters". The kids are dropped off by their
parents and the doors are locked so the kids cannot come and go as they please, however
parents are allowed to pick their child up during the night if they wish.
Schmidgall asked when the "all-nighters" occur. Muller stated they occur on Saturday
nights starting at 9 pm and ending at 7 am on Sunday mornings. He stated that they
occasionally have parents that stay with their children or volunteer at the events. He noted
that a new form of revenue for them has been to rent out their facility for industry events
and photo shoots. He said he understands that they need better safety implemented but
they are proud of their safety record. He added that he would like to have a minimum of 20
Minutes of the Golden Valley Planning Commission
January 11, 2010
Page 3
"all-nighters" per year. Muller referred to Police Chief Altonen's memo and stated that he
thinks she is misinformed and doesn't seem to understand that these events are for kids,
are completely staffed and are drug and alcohol free.
Schmidgall asked Muller if he would have any objection to giving the Police Chief 30 days
notice of the all night events. Muller said he would have no objection to giving her
notification and in fact she currently receives notification of the "all-nighters". He explained
that the all night events are planned months in advance and are posted on the 3rd Lair
website and sent to a bulk emaillist.
Eck said he doesn't see anything in the existing CUP that gives the applicant permission to
have the all night events. Muller stated that the all night events have been a part of his
business plan since the beginning and it is his understanding that he is allowed to have the
all night events. Keysser noted that the CUP is very clear about what is allowed and that
the issues in the Police Chief's memo are valid concerns that could cause significant risk.
Grimes explained that staff heard about an all night event held last September and that the
applicant was allowed to have his special event that one time. Schmidgall noted that that if
the applicant has been having the all night events since he moved to his Golden Valley
location that means there have been 40 to 50 events up to this point. Muller agreed that
some of the Police Chief's concerns are valid and reiterated that it was his understanding
that he could hold the all night events as he's been doing. Eck asked Muller where he got
his understanding that he could have all night events. Muller reiterated that the all night
events have always been a part of his business plan. Grimes explained that the all night
events may have been part of the applicant's business plan, but they have never been a
part of the Conditional Use Permit.
Keysser referred to Deputy Fire Marshal Ed Anderson's concerns and asked Muller to
address them one by one. Muller referred to Anderson's first comment regarding an
occupancy capacity calculation and explained that they had a code analysis done in 2002.
Muller referred to Anderson's second comment regarding outdoor occupancy and
explained that this is a new requirement and he will address the issue. Muller referred to
Anderson's third comment regarding egress and explained that egress issues were
addressed when the original Conditional Use Permit was obtained and that no egresses or
walkways have changed at all. Muller referred to Anderson's fourth and fifth comments
regarding fire code regulations and annual fire alarm and fire suppression system
inspections and stated that Anderson receives annual reports as requested. Muller referred
to the issue of obtaining a food license and explained that he receives a temporary special
event food license every time he has an event and he is not required to have a permanent
food license.
Muller stated that life safety issues are his number one issue. He discussed the safety
procedures followed during his all night events including requiring waiver forms, safety gear
and emergency contact information for every child.
Schmidgall asked about the age of the children at the all night events. Muller stated that the
average age child at an "all-nighter" is 8 to 12 years old. He added that if the child is
younger the parents typically stay at the event with them.
Minutes of the Golden Valley Planning Commission
January 11, 2010
Page 4
Muller referred to his proposal regarding the reduction of parking spaces. He stated that
over the last 7 years the designated parking spaces have decreased in response to their
customer's needs. He said that during past summer months there would be kids skating in
the parking lot which wasn't safe so they determined the safest and best use would be to
turn some of the existing unused parking spaces into an attraction and an area for more
outdoor skating space. He explained that there is an agreement with the City in place that
allows Golden Valley residents to use the outdoor skating area free of charge during the
summer months.
Keysser asked if there was permission granted by the City to take away 25 of the existing
parking spaces. Muller said no and added that the outdoor skating area just evolved due to
the result of kids dragging the ramps into the parking areas and kids wanting to skate
outside during the summer. He stated that he doesn't want to change the outdoor skating
area back into parking spaces because it is a benefit to their business and to Golden
Valley. He added that he has talked to the neighboring property owner to the east about
renting some of their parking spaces if they are needed or required. Eck said he doesn't
understand why the applicant needs to rent parking spaces and yet he is asking to reduce
the required amount of parking spaces. Mark Rodriguez, Muller's business partner,
explained that they would only need to rent parking spaces for large events and if the City
requires them to have 25 parking spaces all year long as opposed to having 5 spaces in
the summer and 25 spaces in the winter as requested. Schmidgall questioned how the
parking requirements went from 50 spaces to 25 spaces. Grimes explained that there were
no parking requirements in place regarding this type of use when it was originally approved
and 50 spaces seemed reasonable at the time. He stated that 25 spaces seem to be
working well and he feels 25 year-round parking spaces now seem reasonable.
Schmidgall referred to the letter submitted by the property owner to the north. Muller said to
his knowledge there has never been anyone towed from the parking lot to the north. He
stated that there are signs posted in that lot that say "No 3rd Lair parking". Rodriguez stated
that he thinks the issues with the property to the north occur when there are events at 3rd
Lair. He explained that they tell their customers, and make announcements at their events,
letting customers know that they should not park in the lot to the north. Muller said he
agrees that the property owner to the north should tow cars if they are parking in his lot.
Grimes stated that he is concerned about the location and screening of the dumpster, the
handicap access parking spaces being blocked with picnic tables and about there being
enough room for emergency vehicles to access the site with the way cars have been
parking. He stated that he has spoken with the applicant in the past about these issues and
he would like them to be addressed. Schmidgall asked if there are handicapped parking
signs posted. Muller said yes.
Keysser suggested that the applicants have a meeting with staff to discuss the issues that
have been raised. Muller stated that he has spoken with the Deputy Fire Marshal, but that
the Police Chief has not agreed to meet with them. Hogeboom said he would work on
getting a meeting set up.
Minutes of the Golden Valley Planning Commission
January 11, 2010
Page 5
Muller showed the Commissioners some video clips of a previous "all-nighter". Waldhauser
asked if the likelihood of injuries goes up when the kids are up all night skating. Rodriguez
said no, there haven't been more injuries during the all night events.
Keysser opened the public hearing.
Mark Rodriquez stated that he has skated at 3rd Lair since 1997. He said he appreciates
the Planning Commission listening to their proposal and he understands that some rules
have been broken based on their ignorance, but he hopes the City will see what they do as
beneficial because most property owners don't want skateboarders destroying their
property. He stated that the impact of their business on these kids is huge and he hopes
the City understands that. He added that they do their best to keep their ramps maintained
and that their skate park is one of the best in the state. He added that they are going to do
everything they can to satisfy any issues or concerns.
Seeing and hearing no one else wishing to comment, Keysser closed the public hearing.
Eck stated he thinks the applicants provide a service and are trying to do a good job but it
seems that there are enough issues with this proposal that he would like to have police and
fire representation at a meeting or at least have something in writing from them because
Mr. Muller has said that he has met the police and fire requirements.
Waldhauser said she is not sure if staff's concerns are boilerplate issues or genuine
concerns regarding this use. She said the Planning Commission doesn't typically look
favorably on businesses that don't comply with the conditions in their permits but she thinks
this is a good activity to have in Golden Valley for this particular age group. She said 3rd
Lair is an asset to the community and she wants it to be safe and successful so it is
unfortunate that there are so many outstanding issues. She said she gives the owners the
benefit of the doubt in not knowing what was required of them, but she is concerned about
the Police Chiefs issues and would support this request with the Police Chief's conditions.
Grimes reiterated his concerns about the parking issues and would like to see staff's
concerns addressed before this proposal is approved. Keysser said he appreciates the
applicants wanting outdoor space for their ramps and asked Grimes what he sees as a
compromise. Grimes stated that there can't be items stored in required parking spaces and
he wants to make sure all of the safety requirements are met. He said he is not sure where
the discrepancy between the applicant and the Deputy Fire Marshal is because he talked
with the Deputy Fire Marshal last week and was told that the issues in his memo still need
to be addressed but the applicant is saying that the items have already been addressed.
He said he has to listen to staff and go with staff's recommendations.
Keysser agreed that there are some unanswered questions and suggested tabling the item
to clear up some of the ambiguous issues. Waldhauser suggested that the applicants also
get a parking plan with the neighboring property in place too.
Minutes of the Golden Valley Planning Commission
January 11, 2010
Page 6
Schmidgall agreed that there are too many loose ends in this proposal. Eck said he doesn't
think anyone on the Commission is questioning the applicant's desire to do a good job they
just need to get some clarification.
Hogeboom reiterated that he would start working on setting up a meeting with staff and the
applicants.
MOVED by Eck, seconded by Waldhauser and motion carried unanimously to table the
applicant's request.
--Short Recess--
3. Reports on Meetings of the Housing and Redevelopment Authority, City
Council, Board of Zoning Appeals and other Meetings
No reports were given.
4. Other Business
No other business was discussed.
5. Adjournment
The meeting was adjourned at 8:41 pm.
~-6Ci-
Lester Eck, Secretary