02-22-10 PC Minutes
Regular Meeting of the
Golden Valley Planning Commission
February 22, 2010
A regular meeting of the Planning Commission was held at the Golden Valley City Hall,
Council Chambers, 7800 Golden Valley Road, Golden Valley, Minnesota, on Monday,
February 22, 2010. Vice Chair Waldhauser called the meeting to order at 7 pm.
Those present were Planning Commissioners Cera, Eck, Kluchka, McCarty, Schmidgall
and Waldhauser. Also present was Director of Planning and Development Mark Grimes,
Police Chief Stacy Altonen, Deputy Fire Marshal Ed Anderson and Administrative Assistant
Lisa Wittman. Chair Keysser was absent.
1. Approval of Minutes
January 25, 2010 Regular Planning Commission Meeting
Eck noted some typographical errors.
MOVED by Eck, seconded by Schmidgall and motion carried unanimously to approve the
January 25, 2010 minutes with corrections.
2. Continued Informal Public Hearing - Conditional Use Permit Amendment #1
- 850 Florida Avenue South - CU-95
Applicant: 3rd Lair Skatepark, Mark Muller
Address: 850 Florida Avenue South
Purpose: To allow for the existing skate park to be open 24 hours a day, 7 days a
week for special events and to reduce the required number of parking spaces.
Mark Grimes, Director of Planning and Development, reminded the Commission that this
item was tabled at their January 11, 2010 meeting in order to obtain some additional
information from the Police and Fire Departments including a code analysis. He explained
that a code analysis has been done on the property and there is some work that will need
to be done in order to fulfill the requirements of the code analysis. He stated that one
issue noted in the code analysis is if the parking area is reconfigured to provide proper
access for emergency vehicles, there would only be four parking spaces available in the
rear area of the building as a result. Therefore, requiring the applicant to provide 25
parking spaces is going to be impossible. However, the applicant has been working with
the neighboring property across the street to secure off-site parking.
Grimes discussed the applicant's request and stated that based on past performance,
staff cannot recommend the extended hours being requested by the applicant. They have
continued to violate the hours of operation allowed in their current Conditional Use Permit,
even as recently as this past week. He said staff's recommendation is to not approve the
applicant's request to extend their hours of operation, require the applicant to meet the
Fire Marshal's issues regarding the code analysis and require the applicant to provide off-
street parking.
Minutes of the Golden Valley Planning Commission
February 22,2010
Page 2
Stacy Altonen, Police Chief, stated she feels the activities that occur at the skate park are
positive for youth and that her concern is not about the activity, it is about the operation of
the business. She stated that there have been repeated violations of the Conditional Use
Permit relative to the hours of operation and by the applicant's own admission they've
had unauthorized overnight events for the past six to seven years.
Altonen explained that after the January 11 Planning Commission meeting several
members of city staff met with the applicants regarding their request and to discuss how
they could come to some sort of compromise. During that meeting the Fire Marshal
clearly spelled out the fire code issues and the applicants were told they would need to be
addressed and presented prior to this Planning Commission meeting. She said she also
told the applicants at that meeting that it is hard for her to support this request with their
track record of repeatedly violating their Conditional Use Permit. She said she was
surprised and disappointed when she realized after their meeting that the applicant's
website lists their hours as midnight on some nights when they've only ever been allowed
to be open until 1 0 pm. She stated that as recently as last Thursday, February 18, there
were several people using the skate park after 11 pm. The applicant indicated to the
police that they could not be open to the public after 10 pm, but they could have private
skate parties after 10 pm. She said one of the requests currently being made by the
applicant is to allow them to have private parties and to be open after 10 pm. Five nights
ago they told the police that they didn't know this wasn't allowed is another indication of
dishonesty. She said she is concerned about the direct non-compliance with the existing
Conditional Use Permit and does not support this amendment request. She added that
the kids have to be safe and their parents need to know their kids are safe in regard to fire
code issues, capacity issues and the general management of the operation.
Eck asked if there has ever been an incident that required law enforcement intervention of
any kind because of conduct occurring at the facility. Altonen said she didn't have the
applicant's history with her but she wouldn't say it is a troublesome spot in terms of
traditional police calls.
Ed Anderson, Deputy Fire Marshal, reiterated that staff asked the applicant to do a code
analysis of the building to show that it meets the building and fire code requirements, the
Zoning Code requirements and the occupancy and classification of the building itself. He
said staff reviewed the code analysis and found ten items that needed clarification. One of
those items was regarding access to the back of the building. He explained that in order
for there to be a fire apparatus turnaround the majority of the parking spaces in the back
of the building would need to be eliminated leaving them 3 or 4 parking spaces in that
area. He said it is his understanding that the applicants now understand what needs to be
done in regard to the code analysis items.
Kluchka asked if the code analysis was specific to expansion of the building. Anderson
explained that the building code and fire code have changed since the building was first
inspected in 2002. Grimes added that there is also less space available behind the
building than there was originally because that area is being used for storage and skate
ramps so there is less room for emergency vehicles to turn around.
Minutes of the Golden Valley Planning Commission
February 22, 2010
Page 3
Waldhauser asked Anderson to point out on the site plan where emergency vehicles
enter the site and how they turn around. Anderson referred to a site plan and discussed
the location of a proposed "hammerhead" turnaround and the parking spaces that would
have to be removed.
Cera asked if the proposed amendment were not granted if the applicant would still have
to bring the property into compliance with the fire and building codes. Anderson said yes
and added that he will work with the applicant to set up a schedule of how the outstanding
issues will be addressed.
Mark Muller, Applicant, stated that 3rd Lair has been in business for 14 years, 7 of which
have been in Golden Valley. He stated that in the time they have been in Golden Valley
he knows of five other skate parks that have gone out of business. They have been able
to survive the difficult economy by responding to their customers needs and finding ways
to keep their customers engaged. He explained that in making some of these changes
they've inadvertently violated their Conditional Use Permit and apologized for operating
outside their permitted hours and reducing the available on-site parking. He added that
without making these changes their business might not exist today.
Muller stated that over the past three months they have taken on a significant financial
burden in order to address the concerns raised by the City and he believes that every
concern has been appropriately resolved. He noted that they have spent over $4,000 in
architectural fees to validate their original blueprints that are still representative of the way
the building is today. The outcome of the analysis is that there have been no significant
changes to the building. He said the Fire Marshal has required there to be additional
signage and some new accommodations for the parking area that will reduce the size of
their outdoor skate park. He added that all of the items in the code analysis have been
addressed. He stated that they have been closing at 10 pm and have cancelled their all-
nighter program. He stated that if they are not able to return to their previous operating
model he estimates a loss of $50,000 per year which will put incredible stress on their
business.
He told the Planning Commission that he hopes they will approve his request to have
normal business hours of 8 am to midnight and allow them to have an additional 25 nights
per year when they can be open all night, or partial nights in order to have the all-nighter
events and other park rentals. He said he is willing to give the City a 30 day notice for
these all night events and if they do not receive approval for their requested amendment
they will not be able to capitalize on the opportunity to maintain their business.
He referred to the issue of parking and said they've submitted a plan that allows for four
on-site parking spaces and he has a lease agreement approving the rental of the parking
lot across the street to the east. He said the proposed parking arrangement will leave
enough space for them to operate the outside skate park area which is critical for their
business.
He stated that there are two groups that benefit from their business, kids and the City of
Golden Valley. The City benefits because many of their patrons are not from Golden
Minutes of the Golden Valley Planning Commission
February 22,2010
Page 4
Valley but they come to Golden Valley and spend money at other surrounding
businesses. He said 3rd Lair is highly regarded by several other communities and is
considered to be one of the leading skate parks in the nation so he hopes Golden Valley
is proud to have them in the community. He added that they are also taking care of a
building that was sitting vacant for two years before they moved in and would sit vacant
again if they left. He said their business benefits kids by providing a safe and positive
environment, their all-nighter events keep kids off the streets, their sessions and lessons
provide structure and goals for young people to work toward, their facility provides a safe
place to make life-long friends, the activities they provide encourage kids to be active and
healthy and their rules teach kids respect and sportsmanship. He asked the Planning
Commission to support these kids and help them sustain their business. He then read an
email of support from a parent of a child who participated in a recent event.
Kluchka asked for clarification regarding the rental of the facility. Muller said they operate
the all-nighter events and other special events and they also have outside companies that
rent the facility after hours.
Eck said he recognizes the realities of operating a business in a difficult economic
environment. He also recognizes that the applicant seems to be doing a very good job in
terms of managing the business and providing a positive atmosphere for young people.
He added that it is difficult for him to understand after the last Planning Commission
meeting that there could still be any possible confusion by the applicant that they are not
in compliance with the Conditional Use Permit yet they continue to operate beyond the
hours allowed. Muller referred to the incident that the Police Chief spoke of earlier. He
stated that they closed their business to the public at 9 pm that night and had a park
rental from 9 pm to 10 pm that ran a bit late. Matt Parrish, Mr. Muller's business partner,
added that they have been closing at 10 pm since the last Planning Commission meeting.
He agreed that the hours have not been changed on their website but they have installed
a large sign on the front door that says they are now closed at 10 pm.
Eck asked the applicant if it is economically unfeasible for them to operate their business
under the current hours allowed in their existing Conditional Use Permit. Muller said yes
and added that they need to be open until midnight and be allowed to have their all-
nighter events and park rentals.
Cera asked the applicant about the typical age of their customers. Muller stated that
they've given lessons to kids as young as 3 but their main demographic is kids 8 to 12
years old.
Cera asked the applicant how their hours of operation coincide with curfew requirements.
Muller said he's not familiar with the curfew laws but he thinks that they would apply more
to kids wandering the streets at night. Cera asked Muller if he would be open to having
different hours on weekends versus during the week. Muller said before he was made
aware that they were violating the hours listed in their Conditional Use Permit they were
open until 11 pm on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, until 9 pm on Thursday, until
midnight on Friday and until 9 pm on Saturday and Sunday. He added that they frequently
have park rentals on Saturday nights after 9 pm.
Minutes of the Golden Valley Planning Commission
February 22, 2010
Page 5
Muller referred to the parking issue and explained that he has permission to rent the lot
from their neighbors across the street so he is hoping that solves the parking issue and
the main issue left to address is their hours of operation.
Waldhauser stated that she visited the site at approximately 3:30 pm and there were a lot
of cars parked in the applicant's parking lot as well as on both sides of the street. Muller
stated that renting the lot across the street will work well for them because they have
opposite business hours. Mark Rodriguez, Mr. Muller's business partner, stated that he
believes the cars Commissioner Waldhauser is referring to are PRISM's customers.
Waldhauser noted that 3rd Lair also has a facility in Burnsville and asked the applicant if
they could have the all-nighter events at that site. Muller stated the Burnsville location is a
separate corporation and is smaller than the Golden Valley location. He reiterated that
they need to have the all-nighter revenue in order to stay in business in Golden Valley.
Grimes referred to the original site plan that showed 50 parking spaces in the area behind
the building. He asked about the fenced-in area. Muller explained that the area Grimes is
referring to is the outdoor ramp area and is not fenced in, but has been expanded since
the original Conditional Use Permit. McCarty asked if the outdoor ramp area was
approved by the City. Muller explained that the outdoor ramp area was approved as a
part of their original Conditional Use Permit but it has been expanded since then.
Rodriguez added that there is a gate in that area, but it is not fenced in.
Altonen addressed the questions regarding curfew. She explained that for kids under 16
the curfew is 9 pm on weekdays (Sunday through Thursday) and 10 pm on weekends
(Friday and Saturday). For kids older than that, but not yet adults the curfew is 10 pm on
weekdays and 11 pm on weekends. Waldhauser said she assumes those curfew rules
apply for children who are unaccompanied by a parent or adult. Altonen said that was
correct and added that the curfew rules apply to kids who are outside. She clarified that
although the Police Department does not receive very many calls to 3rd Lair, they do
receive a fair amount of calls from surrounding businesses regarding unaccompanied
children and children skateboarding and gathering in large groups.
Waldhauser opened the public hearing.
Matt Parrish, Part Owner of 3rd Lair, stated that he moved to Minnesota nine years ago
and has been taking his son to 3rd Lair for five years. He stated that parents are nervous
when they first bring their kids to 3rd Lair but after watching the staff with their kids they
feel comfortable. He stated the Chief Altonen has admittedly never been to their facility
and is making her decisions based on their website while hundreds of parents every week
make the decision that this is a safe environment for their kids based on actual
experience and interaction at 3rd Lair. He stated that about a year ago Muller and
Rodriguez came to him because 3rd Lair was struggling in the hard economy and over the
last year they have really been working hard to sustain their business. He said closing at
9 pm as opposed to midnight, not being allowed to have all-nighter events and reducing
the size of their skate park probably won't shut them down, but all of those things hurt
Minutes of the Golden Valley Planning Commission
February 22,2010
Page 6
their business. He said he wants to be allowed to be creative and to be productive so they
can keep doing all of things they do for Golden Valley.
Shaun Vanvark, Andover, said his family goes to 3rd Lair quite often. He said it is a safe
and clean place and Mr. Muller is adamant about keeping the place clean. He said a
couple of observations he's made is that the crowd after 9 pm tends to be older kids
which is a revenue stream for them. He referred to all-nighters and said they are well
supervised and are a great, fun thing these kids are into. He stated that surrounding
businesses really do benefit from people spending money in this area and he is one of
many families spending a lot of money in Golden Valley. He said he appreciates the City's
efforts to make sure fire codes, etc. are up to date but he hopes what has gone on in the
past hopefully won't be a punishment issue but that 3rd Lair can stay open and be viable
and a benefit to Golden Valley.
Jackson Parrish, 2725 Cabaline Trail, Hamel, said he is 10 years old and has been
skating at 3rd Lair for five years. He said he has met most of his friends at 3rd Lair and
everyone who works there cares and is supportive of him and his friends by cheering
them on at contests and teaching them new tricks. He asked the Commission to please
help 3rd Lair because it is his favorite place to be.
Troy Mosen, said his son also skates at 3rd Lair and he has no problem leaving him there
alone because it is a good place for kids to hang out. He agreed that 3rd Lair brings a lot
of money to the local businesses in Golden Valley area and hopes the Commission
considers that when making their decision.
Kristin Parrish, 2725 Cabaline Trail, Hamel, said she works with youth service
organizations and knows there are cities that are funding programs that provide what 3rd
Lair provides to this community.
Mike Crawford, 46445 Krafts Point Road, Cable, WI, said he runs a summer camp for
skateboarding and gymnastics and he has never worked with a group of people that
genuinely care for kids as much as the people at 3rd Lair do. He said the all-nighter events
are a huge part of what skate parks do. He said it would be a great shame jf 3rd Lair had
to close.
Seeing and hearing no one else wishing to comment, Waldhauser closed the public
hearing.
Cera stated that the applicants are asking for their hours to be changed to 8 am to
midnight and noted that someone earlier mentioned that they don't open until 3 pm. He
asked for clarification on the hours of operation.
Rodriguez explained that during the week they have found that they don't have a lot of
business before 3 pm in the winter but their summer business is a whole different
dynamic. He explained their current hours and the various programs they offer now and
programs they would like to offer in the future. He reiterated that they would like to have
their hours be 8 am to midnight, plus the 25 all-nighter events per year.
Minutes of the Golden Valley Planning Commission
February 22, 2010
Page 7
Grimes asked Rodriguez if they always have a 30-day advance notice for all of their park
rentals including private parties and all-nighters. Rodriguez said they could give the City a
30-day notice for the all-nighter events but they might not always have that much advance
notice for other park rentals. He said he feels that if they are allowed to have permission
for 25 all-night events per year that would work for their all-nighter events and their private
party park rentals.
Grimes asked about the youngest person 3rd Lair would let into their facility after 9 pm.
Muller said they leave that decision to the parents and to his knowledge there is not an
issue with curfew because the kids aren't out on the streets, they are in a private facility.
Kluchka said curfew is an issue of parent responsibility and is not relevant in this case so
they should stop talking about it. Waldhauser said that the curfew issue does have an
impact on the surrounding property owners.
McCarty said he doesn't doubt that the facility is safe but his concern is that they've
clearly violated their Conditional Use Permit and he is having a hard time supporting this
request based on their past actions.
Schmidgall said he wonders if 3rd Lair had come to them in the beginning and asked for
permission to have the all-nighter events if the Planning Commission would have
recommended approval. He suggested a trial period in which the City asks them to
comply with all the codes and maybe allow them to be open from 8 am to midnight, but
not allow the all-nighter events until there has been some forward movement.
Eck agreed that the violations should not have occurred but he has not heard one single
negative comment about this business. He said this business appears to be very positive
and if the hours can be worked out and the applicant's are sincere, he would support this
request.
Cera said there are four issues: 1) the parking, which seems to have been addressed, 2)
the regular business hours of 8 am to midnight, 3) the all-nighter events; and 4) approving
this request on a trial basis or for a certain period of time.
Grimes suggested the applicants submit a report to the City Council in 6 months that
explains how they've met the conditions of their Conditional Use Permit. In specific,
bringing the property "up to code" and having a definite parking agreement in place. He
explained that the City has a right to call these violations misdemeanors, or the City can
revoke the Conditional Use Permit. He told the applicants that the City cannot see
anymore violations. McCarty asked if there is a reason the Conditional Use Permit hasn't
been revoked. Grimes said staff generally likes to work with people rather than having to
go to court. He stated that the Planning Commission can recommend approval of the
requested amendment he just doesn't want to have unrealistic conditions put in place that
are impossible to enforce.
Waldhauser said her preference would be to approve the amendment as requested with
parameters and a set time to review everything again. She suggested to the applicants
that they establish an advisory board to help the business side of their operation.
Minutes of the Golden Valley Planning Commission
February 22,2010
Page 8
Kluchka agreed that the Commission should recommend approval for the extended hours
of 8 am to midnight. He suggested that the private rentals be required to obtain a permit
from the City in order to give the applicants some flexibility. He also suggested that there
be monitoring of their hours and their compliance with the fire code. Waldhauser thought
it would be difficult and would require much more advanced notice if a permit was to be
reviewed by staff every time the applicants have a private rental. Kluchka said the City
has nothing to do with their private events. Cera said he thinks the City and particularly
the Police need to know. Grimes suggested requiring 30-days notice for the all-nighter
events and a two week notice for the after hour park rentals. Kluchka suggested that the
applicants be required to give a two week notice for any event held after hours and not to
separate the all-nighter events from the private party rentals because that just
complicates things. Muller stated that they rarely have private rentals that go past
midnight. The applicants agreed that they could give a 30-day notice for their all-nighter
events and a two week notice for the after hour park rentals.
McCarty asked if the conditions they've been discussing would be in effect once 3rd Lair
complies with all the code issues. Anderson explained that the code issues have been
addressed with the architect but that nothing has been implemented yet. He added that
he thought June 1 would be a sufficient deadline to implement the code issues.
Schmidgall stated that the property is currently messy and unsightly. He told the
applicants that he wants them to understand that the Planning Commission is inclined to
give them the extended hours they're asking for, but he hopes they'll fulfill their end of the
deal and doesn't want to hear about the same issues six months from now.
MOVED by Cera, seconded by McCarty and motion carried unanimously to recommend
approval of the request for a Conditional Use Permit amendment with the following
conditions:
1. The parking area must allow space for a screened dumpster. The screened dumpster
must be approved by the Building Official.
2. The parking area must comply with American with Disability Act standards, including
providing adequate handicapped-accessible parking.
3. A signed and notarized agreement for parking access must be obtained from the
owners of 715 Florida Avenue South. This document must allow the use of at least 21
parking spaces for the 3rd Lair. The document must be provided to the City by June 1,
2010.
4. Proof must be provided that 25 total striped stalls exist and are usable by June 1,2010.
5. The applicant must submit a report by June 1, 2010 showing that their property has
been brought into compliance with the Fire Code and the Building Code both indoors
and outdoors.
6. Operating hours shall be 8 am to midnight daily.
7. The City Manager shall be given a 30-day notice for "all-nighter events" and a two
week notice for all other after hour events/park rentals
8. The applicant must submit a written a report by September 1, 2010 regarding
compliance with their Conditional Use Permit including: parking, safety issues and
code compliance.
Minutes of the Golden Valley Planning Commission
February 22, 2010
Page 9
--Short Recess--
4. Reports on Meetings of the Housing and Redevelopment Authority, City
Council, Board of Zoning Appeals and other Meetings
Kluchka gave a report on the February 16 City Council where all of the planning items
were approved.
Kluchka gave an update regarding Olson School and the District 281 Divestiture
Committee.
5. Other Business
No other business was discussed.
6. Adjournment
The meeting was adjourned at 9:04 pm.
Lester Eck, Secretary